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This is the second episode in a two-part series this week about Villains and their role in story. Suzy chats with Author Debbie Burke about her book The Villain’s Journey ~ How to Create Villains Readers Love to Hate. In part two, they talk about:
- The types and flavors of villains in fiction
- How the genre you are writing changes how to approach villains
- The unique traits of female villains
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Podcast Episode Transcript (unedited)
115. How to Write Multifaceted Villains
Suzy Vadori: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Show, Don’t Tell writing podcast with me, Suzy Vadori, where I peel back the layers of how to wow your readers with your fiction, your nonfiction. Anybody can bang out a first draft, but it takes a little more work to make your book as amazing as it can be. Join me as I share the step-by-step writing techniques you could apply to your writing right away, as I host successful writers who share a behind-the-scenes look at their own [00:00:30] writing lives, and as I live coach writers on their pages, giving practical writing examples that will make your own writing stronger.
Nobody is born knowing how to write an engaging book. There are real and important skills that you need to learn. On this show, I cut through the noise and get you all the info you need. I can’t wait to see how this information is going to transform your writing
I get pitches to come on my podcast all the [00:01:00] time from writers, and I love, love, love seeing them. But I wanna make sure that the writers that come on the podcast have a lot to tell us about craft and that you can really learn from them as listeners, that tell us something about their writing life that’s cool or something about how we can write differently.
And when Debbie Burks hit my desk, I was so excited because she’s written a book called The Villains Journey: How to Create Villains Readers Love to Hate. And I just took a quick look at what she’d done, and her personality just [00:01:30] shone through everything that she does. I know you’re gonna love her today.
We have so much fun talking about villains in this episode. So she self-professes, looks like a cookie-baking quilter from Montana, but she hangs out with a tough crowd she claims. In her award-winning Tawny Lindholm thriller series, she consorts with terrorists, scam artists, embezzlers, kidnappers, and killers.
And her best-selling craft writing book, The Villains Journey: How to Create Villains Readers Love to Hate, delves deep into the [00:02:00] desires, compulsions, and the psychology that motivate memorable antagonists in books, films, and real life. The Villains Journey is a finalist for the Silver Falchion Award for Best Nonfiction, and Debbie also writes for international news publications, teaches writing workshops, and does freelance editing.
I can’t wait till you hear this episode So I love what we were just talking about. You’re talking about, about knowing where your villain is and all of those things, but [00:02:30] it ties into something bigger, because I talk about this a lot on the podcast as well, where when a writer doesn’t know the answers, then everything feels vague.
And it’s one of these weird things where when I’m looking at a manuscript with a client, and I can put in the margin, “Hey, I don’t think you’ve decided this.” Like, I don’t think you’ve decided, you know, what your villain actually, where he, where your villain lives or what they do, and they’re like, “How do you know that?”
And it’s because- Yeah … everything that ends up on the page is so vague [00:03:00] that it’s boring- Yeah … and it’s not interesting, right? And so you need to know these things.
Debbie B.: The more specifics you can include, the better. I think specific details are what really bring a character to life, and it’s- Mm … little things.
It’s not necessarily their hair and eye color and how they dress and so on. It’s little things like their quirks, their tics, their obsessions, their things that make them perk up and get excited, or things [00:03:30] that make them go, “Oh, God,” you know, “Do I have to listen to this?” You know. So it’s specific reactions, specific traits, I think are what will bring any character to life, not just heroes and villains, but any character, so.
Suzy Vadori: Hey, and that is one of the main concepts that we need to learn in showing, right? Like, it’s not- That’s right … that we’re telling, but if it’s in the absence of it, we’re not showing. Yes. Um, but again, you may know why they’re like that and all that. You don’t [00:04:00] need to tell the reader that. You need to understand it as a writer, because then what comes through is consistency, and what the reader will see is that their actions seem consistent and feel cohesive, and they don’t need all of the backstory.
I mean, sometimes- Exactly … it might make sense, but you know, don’t feel the need to explain everything, but definitely their quirks and things should make sense in your space, and you should know why they’re doing the things that they’re doing.
Debbie B.: Exactly. And, you know, you want to leave some unanswered questions, but you do not want to [00:04:30] do the back, you know, the dreaded backstory because that isn’t that important.
It’s selected items out of that backstory that you want to slip in.
Suzy Vadori: Yeah. Okay, so assuming that we’re writing a book that isn’t the reverse where the villain becomes the hero, right? What is the role of the villain? Because you’ve written that the protagonist needs to react to something, right? But I just, I wonder how do you…
‘Cause I haven’t thought about it this way [00:05:00] before, but we often are worried about the protagonist having enough agency so that they’re not reacting or, or just reacting to what’s happening, but they are driving the story. So how do you balance that when you flip it and look at the villain in this way?
Debbie B.: I think the bigger the villain, the bigger the challenge for the protagonist and hero who has to rise to the occasion and dig deeper into their reserves and their strengths that they didn’t know they [00:05:30] had because they have to somehow vanquish the villain.
And so they are drawing on tools that they maybe haven’t used before, but they discover about themselves during the, the process of the story as it unfolds, and I think that the more they learn that they’re capable of more than they thought they were, that makes a much more appealing hero. You know, because well- Yeah
oh God, I could [00:06:00] never do that. But then you see somebody who did. You know, you see somebody who runs into the burning building and drags out the baby and the puppy, you know, and, and they’re the sh- heroes, and you go, “How did you do that?” You know? Well, they just did it, and that’s, I think-
Suzy Vadori: Yeah …
Debbie B.: you know, the hero has to have these untapped sources of strength that they’re not aware of, but then they will come out in the challenge [00:06:30] as they have to, uh, have to fight the villain.
Suzy Vadori: Yeah, and they need motivation as well. I mean, we- Yeah … I talk about making sure you understand what your hero’s deeply personal reason is for being willing to go above and beyond what any regular human would do in order to get the thing done. And, you know, in real life, if I saw somebody in a burning building and I decided to go because I thought I could- Mm-hmm
and save them, um, I’m a very rational individual. If I thought I could do it, I’d probably do [00:07:00] it. It’s altruistic. There’s nothing in it for me. There’s great risk to my part, but it’s just because I’m- Yeah … doing the right thing. Okay, cool, but you know what? That is the worst kind of hero when they’re just doing things because it’s the right thing to do, so you need more than that in a book.
It doesn’t- Yeah … it doesn’t fly. I mean, that’s … Maybe I get a news article about how Suzy saved somebody from a burning building, uh, which I’ve never done, by the way. Could I? No idea. Luckily haven’t had to make that choice. But yeah, it’s, it’s just, you know, making sure that they have a [00:07:30] actual personal reason and not just out of duty or honor or something because that makes a really boring hero, by the way.
Debbie B.: Yeah, I, I agree that be- and that again, that goes back to the backstory. You know, what were their influences? Who taught them the values that they had? And who, who was their, I guess, mentor figure, and why are those values important to them? And why do they want to [00:08:00] Like somebody feels compelled to save other people, and that, you know, that can be a blessing and a curse.
Suzy Vadori: Are they trying to save themselves?
Debbie B.: Exactly. Trying
Suzy Vadori: to win somebody’s approval, right?
Debbie B.: Well, actually, exactly.
Suzy Vadori: Something else, please.
Debbie B.: Yeah. Okay. So something deeper. You know, go deeper always. I had a couple of psychologists who helped me with, uh, with the book, and they, they’re university professors, and they do studies on heroism and heroes, [00:08:30] why we need heroes, and also have done some work on villains and were very helpful to me.
So it’s just, you know, it’s, I think digging deep and going into their past is where you will find a lot of answers.
Suzy Vadori: Yeah. Amazing. Okay. So Debbie, what is fun for you personally about writing villains?
Debbie B.: Oh, God. I get to kill people. I get to do all kinds of nasty things. I’m
Suzy Vadori: assuming you don’t do [00:09:00] that in real life though.
Like, I’m gonna make that assumption.
Debbie B.: Yeah. It’s only on the page, really. You know.
Suzy Vadori: I wish the listeners could see your face light up when I asked that question. You’re like just so passionate about the villains, and that’s what I love about you. It’s amazing.
Debbie B.: I think it’s, a villain, another reason villains are fascinating is beget- because they get to do what the rest of us don’t, and we kind of have that secret wish, “Gee, I’d like to do that too.
I’d like to [00:09:30] try that out.” And so I think it’s kind of a vicarious way of living out your shadow side. But it’s a lot of fun. I, one of my strong points according to reviewers are my villains in my books, and I just have the best time with… Often that’s more interesting than writing the hero’s scenes, you know or the villain’s scenes.
I love it. It is a different, a different thought [00:10:00] process. And so it’s, uh, you know, and it’s totally unlike me. I mean, I don’t even have unpaid parking tickets. I’m the squarest, most boring, white bread person you ever met, you know? So, but I think we all have that little… You know, remember the cartoons with the angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other?
We all kind of would like to play that devil sometimes.
Suzy Vadori: Yeah. I love that. I love that. Okay. Okay. So you, uh, uh, there, it’s not a mistake then, because you love this so [00:10:30] much, that you write crime fiction, right? And so what role do villains play in suspense, mystery, thriller versus other genres? ‘Cause it is a little bit different, right?
Debbie B.: They are the driving force in the, you know, in suspense, crime fiction. You know, they’re the ones who kick over the first domino, and, you know, they, they cause the inciting incident.
Suzy Vadori: Yeah.
Debbie B.: Villains in other genres, [00:11:00] I don’t know, are you talking about villains or antagonists?
Suzy Vadori: That’s the question, right? You don’t necessarily have a villain in another genre.
Right. Not necessarily, right?
Debbie B.: Yeah, an antagonist can be, can take on some villainous characteristics, but they aren’t necessarily somebody who’s gonna go to prison. Uh, it can be the, uh, the emperor of the homeowner’s association who fines you for planting the wrong color of petunias. You know, that- The
Suzy Vadori: emperor, I love that
that is [00:11:30] villain. You know, that,
Debbie B.: uh, but n- they’re never gonna go to prison for that. They’re never even, you know, gonna get yelled at for that except by the hero. So-
Suzy Vadori: But again, that goes back to you as the writer get to decide who is a hero and who is a villain, right? Exactly. And it doesn’t have to look like a classic Maleficent
Debbie B.: or something is-
Suzy Vadori: Right
what I think of. Let’s talk about the types or flavors of villains. We’re not gonna be able to go through all 31 flavors or whatever the [00:12:00] Baskin-Robbins is right there. But, but can you talk about a couple just to get, whet our appetite? And of course, listeners, go pick up the book, read the rest, but just tell us a little bit about how you came up with these flavors.
Why do you call them flavors? And maybe name a couple.
Debbie B.: I guess just ’cause they’re so tasty. You know? They’re just, it’s just fun. Uh, and they, um- I have the comic villain. Think of Danny [00:12:30] DeVito in some of his roles, you know, where he’s been the bad guy, but he’s so darn cute and funny you can’t hate him. You know, and so that’s
I like comic villains a lot. They’re fun. I like the kind of avenging angel villain who has a cause that they are trying to put forward and, you know, make, make the world a better place, and unfortunately, that usually means, you know, wiping out a whole, [00:13:00] you know, whole race of people or a whole religion or these, you know, these causes that they have.
I love female villains. They’re a blast. In fact, I have a very long chapter on the different types of female villains, and a lot of them, for many years, it was the power behind the throne was the only way a woman could get to have a, a position of p- power in society, was they align themselves with a powerful man.
Look at Lady [00:13:30] Macbeth in Macbeth. Mm-hmm. She aligned herself with the, the king, and then, of course, led him astray pretty badly. But that, um, but people like that, and then you got the femme fatale from the, you know, noir movies of the 1940s and ’50s. They’re a lot of fun, and that has translated forward into more the Basic Instinct, Sharon Stone-type character where [00:14:00] she’s smarter than everybody else, and she’s getting away with it and, you know, and she’s having a ball doing it.
She’s just having a blast. But then another type of villain are the ones with antisocial personality disorders, and that’ll be, uh, narcissists, psychopaths, and sociopaths, and the difference between them is often conscience and l- how much conscience they have. For instance, a true psychopath has no [00:14:30] conscience They don’t care.
They just don’t care. They don’t care whether they get caught. They don’t care whether they go to prison. They don’t care that they’ve killed 14 people. Yeah. They don’t. And sociopaths and narcissists, they have consciences, and they’re aware of that what they’re doing is wrong, but they figure out ways to justify it.
Suzy Vadori: Yeah, exactly. Of
Debbie B.: course. Just so I, they,
Suzy Vadori: they- It’s a lot of fun, a lot of fun. I’ve worked with a lot of writers that use those types [00:15:00] of personalities, and, you know, the sociopath is actually much more interesting than the psychopath because-
Debbie B.: Exactly.
Suzy Vadori: Exactly … they think they’re doing it, like, some people they maybe know, but they’re kinda justifying it, and they reframe it so much that- Yeah
you know, they think that they’re doing good in the world or convince themselves that when really it’s horrific, right?
Debbie B.: Exactly. It’s a lot of fun. Exactly. So that’s, you know, those are fun. I like to play with the, you know, the psychological, different psychology faces you can put [00:15:30] on people.
Suzy Vadori: Absolutely. So the book’s been out for just over a year.
What’s the response been? How has this changed your relationship with the world and with writers, and I’m sure you’ve done so many things. What’s it been like?
Debbie B.: It’s been really fun because people do respond. I think there was a genuine need for this, this textbook, if you will, you know, because it hadn’t been explored before.
And people get really excited when they start playing the, filling [00:16:00] out the build a villain worksheet and coming up with reasons behind their own villains and antagonists and why they’re doing things. And the other thing that has been really surprising to me is people who are not writers like this book.
Suzy Vadori: Hmm. Interesting. Like a reader, readers probably are fascinated by it.
Debbie B.: Yeah Exactly. I have readers who, you know, are voracious readers would never write anything, but they like to see the inner workings of the villain characters [00:16:30] that they- Yeah … are interested. So you don’t even have to be a writer, you know, and, and people have just been very, very enthusiastic and very, very fun.
You know, it’s just been a lot of fun, ’cause I think we, that little shadow side and that little devil on our shoulder and, and this kind of gives people the opportunity to play with it.
Suzy Vadori: Yeah. And your enthusiasm for this topic, this is such a fun interview. Like, I, I just can’t even. That’s why I was excited to have you [00:17:00] on the show.
Thanks
Debbie B.: so much.
Suzy Vadori: We’ve reached the quick-fire portion of our recording, so I’m about to ask you a few questions. I know you’ve listened to some episodes, so this isn’t gonna come as a surprise. How long did it take you from the idea to publication of the first novel that you published?
Debbie B.: Probably a year and a half, um, but I had written a whole bunch of trunk novels before that.
Suzy Vadori: There you go. Yeah.
Debbie B.: I’m embarrassed to tell you that I wrote [00:17:30] probably a dozen novels before that that didn’t fly.
Suzy Vadori: Yeah. Yeah, right? And maybe you’ll pull them out and know what’s wrong with them now, or maybe not. You know what happened. We change, we change as writers. Exactly. I have a book, like, that was on a revise and resubmit in 2020, and I didn’t end up doing it for a lot of reasons.
2020 was a weird year in YA fantasy, and also I didn’t really wanna do what they wanted me to do. Yeah.
Debbie B.: I just didn’t
Suzy Vadori: do it, and then now I’m like, well, I have this book that’s in pretty good shape. It was on submission at that [00:18:00] time, and we pulled it because, you know, YA fantasy wasn’t- Wasn’t flying. Um, w- all the bookstores were closed.
It’s like a hugely print medium thing, so they weren’t getting bought, and there was a bit of a glut. And the market’s changed so much, and I’m like, “Should I pull that old book out and see what I could do with it?” And I’m like, “I don’t know. I don’t know.” It’s hard, right? So I, I, I can totally relate. If you’re
Debbie B.: still, if you’re still interested in it and, you know-
Suzy Vadori: Well, I’d have to find a new angle, I think.
I’d have to find- Yeah … a new way in to be fun for [00:18:30] me at this moment- Yeah … in my career. Um-
Debbie B.: But, you know, when you’ve had this much time away from it, you may be able to easily look at it with a new ang- angle- Yeah … or see and spot a new angle that you had never thought of before.
Suzy Vadori: Yeah, it’s tough when you’re a writing instructor, and you’re gonna find this too, Debbie, as you keep going and teaching.
You know, I’ve been teaching writing now for more than a decade and worked on more than 200 books for clients.
Debbie B.: Right. Yeah.
Suzy Vadori: Yeah, and, and the thing is, is like now there’s so much pressure as a, as a writing instructor, and I [00:19:00] wanna go back and rewrite all the books that I’ve published as you learn more, but you can’t.
You just, you just- Yeah … have to say, like, you know, my first novel was The Fountain. It won a lot of awards. It sold thousands and thousands of books, and I still get emails from kids saying that was the first book that, like, from teens, saying that was the first book that they ever read all the way through.
It’s the first book that they shared with their friends, you know? Yeah. Like, all of those things, and so I look at it now and go like, “Oh, my goodness, look at all those technical things that I would change, or the things that I know now.” Yeah. It doesn’t matter. [00:19:30] It doesn’t
Debbie B.: matter. It doesn’t matter if you, if-
Suzy Vadori: Something was good about it.
Debbie B.: Yeah, if you touch readers the way you obviously did with that book-
Suzy Vadori: Yeah …
Debbie B.: that’s the value right there. You don’t have to come in and rearrange commas. Just-
Suzy Vadori: Exactly. Exactly. Okay, so what was your first big break in terms of where you were like, “Okay, this is real. I’m gonna get published”? Maybe you’ve already answered it already with Discovering Your Villain Was Where Hiding, right?
Debbie B.: Yeah. Uh, that [00:20:00] was the first book that I submitted to the contest that won, and, uh, it was called Instrument of the Devil, and that was, that was- Picked up, picked up and became a best seller and, you know, won some awards. And, uh, then a- as life will do to you,
Suzy Vadori: you know,
Debbie B.: you think you’re on that trajectory just going to the, straight to the top of the mountain, and they decided to close their doors.
Suzy Vadori: Yeah. [00:20:30] Happens, right? Publishing is such a fickle place these days.
Debbie B.: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You know, it’s, it, that was my big break that I guess proved to me, okay, I can write a book that somebody is willing to buy.
Suzy Vadori: Yeah.
Debbie B.: And that was the affirmation that, that I, I knew I could write, but that was enough of an affirmation that I thought, okay, now I can do this and get away with it.
Call myself an author, not a pretender. Yeah.
Suzy Vadori: I [00:21:00] love it. Okay. What is your best advice for those writers listening out there to the podcast today who wanna tackle writing a book with a really awesome villain in it?
Debbie B.: Boy, get inside their head. Look at their, develop their background. You know, build them from the ground up, and come up with the things that are the really serious wounds that shape them and make their worldview [00:21:30] a particularly skewed one.
And that, I think if you can get into their deepest pain, their deepest fear, that’s another thing. What is the villain’s deepest fear? What are they most afraid of? What would just destroy them if the world found out that they were afraid of this? That’s another thing that I think is really important when you’re developing a villain.
Suzy Vadori: Yeah. Amazing advice. Thank you so much. Okay. Yeah. Where can [00:22:00] all the listeners find you, your books? We’ll drop all the links in the show notes, but just tell us where we can find you.
Debbie B.: Well, I’m in all the usual places, you know, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, the regular marketplaces. And, uh, I have a website, debbieburkeriter.com, that they can find me on, and I have a Substack also that I’ve just recently started.
And so that one isn’t too well established. But I’ve also been a contributor at The Kill Zone for many years [00:22:30] now, and so my posts, you know, are in, uh, in The Kill Zone archives.
Suzy Vadori: Okay. So you can get in on the ground floor. Go follow Debbie’s Substack and see what she’s doing, and give her some feedback.
Yeah. Give her a little bit of love and support. Help her b- get found over there, ’cause that’s the newest one, right?
Debbie B.: Thank you. That’s, you know, so marketing is my downfall. That is, I, I just have a terrible time
Suzy Vadori: doing marketing. Okay. You know, like, just as an [00:23:00] added bonus on this episode, I will say that Debbie Burke, you contacted me cold, and I get a lot of pitches for the podcast.
I’ve shared this with you personally, but I get a lot of pitches for the podcast. Um, and many people don’t do their research and don’t understand that we actually talk about behind the scenes, and we talk about topics, and writing things, and writing life. And we want the skinny, we want the behind the scenes.
Right. Uh, you understood that, and your, your submission stood out. And often, I wish I could bring everybody on the podcast that [00:23:30] wants to, but if you’re sending out a generic, “Come and interview me about my book,” where I, as the host, have to do all of the work in learning about your book, I’m not really that, you know, that’s not what we’re about here at the podcast.
So yeah- Right … so if you’re thinking… But anyway, so you say that marketing is your downfall, and yet I thought you were really good at it, and you’re here as a consequence. So I, I’m excited to have you in my world. Go find Debbie, and thank you so much for being here today.
Debbie B.: Thank you, Suzy. This has just been a blast.
It’s been so [00:24:00] much fun talking with you. And, you know, you are such a, a kindred spirit in so many of the attitudes that, you know, we have towards characters and writing and things that help writers. And really enjoy that, really enjoy that.
Suzy Vadori: Yeah, that’s what we’re here to do, is help all y’all. Yeah. So if you love the podcast today, make sure to comment, um, make sure to subscribe, and we’ll see you again next time.
[00:24:30] Thanks for tuning in to the Show, Don’t Tell writing podcast with me, Suzy Vadori. It is my absolute honor to bring you the straight goods for that book you’re writing or the book that you’re planning to write. Please help me keep the podcast going by helping people find us. You can subscribe to the podcast and leave a review on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever else you’re listening to show how much you enjoy the show.
Debbie B.: That’s how other listeners will find us.
Suzy Vadori: Also, visit Suzyvadori.com/newsletter [00:25:00] to hop on my weekly inspired writing newsletter list, where you’ll stay inspired and be the first to know about all the upcoming training events and writing courses that happen in my community. Want my eyes on your writing?
Submit a page of your current draft for a chance to come on the podcast at the link in the show notes. I’d love to chat with you about your writing in my always positive, incredibly supportive way so that you can make great strides towards your writing goals. I’m here to cheer you on. Remember, [00:25:30] that book you’re writing is gonna open doors that you haven’t even thought of yet, and I can’t wait to help you make that it the absolute best it can be.
See you again right here next [00:26:00] [00:26:30] [00:27:00] [00:27:30] [00:28:00] [00:28:30] week