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In this episode, you will learn how to use your characterās inner thoughts to convey a unique point of view that can help build suspense in your Mystery, Thriller, or Suspense novel. Suzy and Samantha Skal use real, concrete examples to help you see how to apply this craft knowledge to your work on the page.Ā
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Podcast Episode Transcript (unedited)
108. Using Interiority to Build Suspense
- Interiority in MTS
Suzy Vadori: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Show Donāt Tell writing podcast with me, Suzy Vadori, where I peel back the layers of how to wow your readers with your fiction, your nonfiction. Anybody can bang out a first draft, but it takes a little more work to make your book as amazing as it can be. Join me as I share the step-by-step writing techniques you could apply to your writing right away as I host successful writers who share a behind-the-scenes look at their own [00:00:30] writing lives and as I live coach writers on their pages, giving practical writing examples that will make your own writing stronger.
Nobody is born knowing how to write an engaging book. There are real and important skills that you need to learn. On this show, I cut through the noise and get you all the info you need. I canāt wait to see how this information is going to transform your writing
Today on the podcast, prepare to [00:01:00] be maybe a little bit scared, because I actually got scared when we were recording this one, which Sam actually had a lot of fun making fun of me for. But Samantha Skal is a fan of the scary, the mysterious, and suspenseful. She is the executive director of Thriller Fest, and sheās the co-founder of Shadows and Secrets Writing Retreats, which is a series of thriller and mystery-focused writing retreats in Salem, Massachusettsā most haunted hotel.
And sheās also, like me, an Author [00:01:30] Accelerator certified book coach, but she specializes in coaching mystery, thriller, and suspense, which is shorthand is called MTS in the industry. And she works with authors all the way from novel planning through the delightful hell that is revision. These are her words.
Her superpower as a coach is brainstorming twists without ground-up rewrites, and she recently released a standalone mini course for blocked thriller writers, which is called Find Your Final Twist. Sheās an enthusiast of [00:02:00] homemade sourdough and cheese of all kinds. Sam is an agent and author who writes stories that keep her up at night, and she also lives in the beautiful Pacific Northwest I canāt wait for you to hear this.
You can hear me squirming as Sam sets up. She uses so many examples in this interview where just with simple things and with the intonation of her voice and with some simple setups, sheās actually creating suspense for us. It is absolutely beautiful, and weāre gonna talk all about what twists mean. [00:02:30] We might even invent a drinking game during this.
It was a really fun interview that we recorded together, and there was so much insight that we actually created two episodes for your enjoyment. Enjoy these next two episodes. So wow. Okay. So you also coach using interiority to create suspense- Mm-hmm ā¦ right? That feeling of suspense, and weāve been talking around it and acting like all the listeners understand, but letās break it down.
What exactly is [00:03:00] interiority?
Samantha Skal: Great question. So interiority is inner thought. Itās that, like, you know, and I read somewhere recently that not every human on the planet has an internal monologue, which is just-
Suzy Vadori: Oh, thatās interesting. I mean- Just- ā¦ I knew that not everybody can visualize- Right ā¦ and we know people in our circle, and I work with lots of writers on that.
Iām gonna research that because Iām so interested in the brain. Yeah. Itās that I myself have a very robust inner monologue, and it, you know, itās constantly going. So interiority comes relatively easy to me. I wonder if mine is actually visual. I wonder. Now that I think about it. Yeah. Okay. Weāll [00:03:30] take that off line, but letās see if youāre interested.
But yeah, I mean, I
Samantha Skal: write interiority, but yeah, I donāt actually think those words.
Suzy Vadori: Okay. So, you know, you have two different ways of thinking about it just with two people here. So however your brain works, just think of interiority as inner thought on the page. Itās in between the dialogue. Itās the translation of what your character, your POV character is seeing around them.
So, you know, weāre sitting in this room, and if I were being super boring about it, I might say that, you know, Suzy is sitting on this couch, and Iām leaning against this pillow, [00:04:00] and, you know, thereās a window over there, and thereās a door. And I am to your
Samantha Skal: right. Yes. And I am about two feet
away from you.
Right. Yes. Yeah. And- And my blonde hair, whatever it is, like these details are-
Suzy Vadori: I love your blonde hair.
Samantha Skal: Thank you so much ā¦ so much. Whatās the- These details are only interesting when theyāre translated. So instead, itās going to be Suzy is on this couch, and I have just noticed behind her that there is a blood spot.
Thereās not, readers. For those of us, everything is fine. But, you know, itās, Iām noticing the couch because thereās something thatās relevant to the story. I am aware [00:04:30] of the window behind me because I come, and this is again not real, I come from a background where I know that somebody is, like, looking for me, and so having a window in this room is very uncomfortable.
That is translation. That is interiority. And so you can think of it, and so I just injected some fear in that one. So if Iām in my head as the POV character and Iām- I canāt stop
thinking about that window.
Suzy Vadori: There actually isnāt
Samantha Skal: even a window, and I feel like there is now.
I just painted you a picture. Yeah.
Yeah, so you know, I have just told you so much about [00:05:00] who I am by interiority, by telling you in my inner thought as the POV character that the window is freaking me out because someone is looking for me. Absolutely. And so that, instead of it being like, oh, someone is looking for me- Itās, youāre using the translation Weāre
showing it and
Suzy Vadori: not- Oh
telling
it.
We are on the Show Donāt Tell podcast. So turn that back around. I can bring it all around, and I can also, ācause I use slightly different words, but weāre coaching the same thing. And then- Yeah ā¦ usually what I teach is that there are five elements of [00:05:30] writing that you can put on the page, and one of those is inner thoughts.
Mm-hmm. And one of those is dialogue, and the other three are setting, actions, and reactions. And to combine them all together, itās boring to read. We donāt want three pages of interiority or inner thought- No ā¦ because, oh my goodness, youāre gonna tire a readerās brains out. You wanna be able to, you canāt see my hands, Iām making a puzzle thing with my hands.
Yeah. Kind of like
Samantha Skal: a Rubikās Cube.
Suzy Vadori: Like a Rubikās Cube? Yeah. My son loves Rubikās cubes. Yeah. Okay. So, but weāre, weāre kind of [00:06:00] trying to weave those all together to keep tickling their brains and keep them awake, which is part of what we wanna do. But also, what else you said was that your nar- like, your narrator or your point of view character, their interiority is going to translate things or interpret whatās happening.
Yeah. And you gotta remember, they are our interpreter, and we become them, and we will, like you said earlier, we will make the assumptions. If they assume something, weāll kind of go along with it [00:06:30] unless itās really out in left field, right? Absolutely. As long as itās logical. Absolutely. And I, you know, I like to coach people, if youāre unfamiliar with the concept of interiority, pick up your favorite book that you felt really engaged with and look for that translation.
But then in your own work, take a page, you know, hopefully it has a little bit of dialogue on it. Maybe you have some description. Maybe you have some action. If I am the POV character and I donāt explain why I am about to take this action or explain why I took that action, it falls flat because I, as the reader, have- Donāt care, no [00:07:00] idea why youāre doing what youāre doing.
Yep. And so- Take care. Tell me ā¦ I donāt care. Yeah. Let me in your head. And we wonāt know how to feel about it. Yeah. You know? Somebody knocks on the door and I open it up and itās, I donāt know, the monkey trainer. I donāt know why Iām a monkey today. Sure. Yeah. Am I scared? Am I indifferent? I have no idea.
Right. As the reader, I donāt know, but if your point of view character does know, share that. Yeah. Because then we know how to f- we donāt know how to feel until you tell us how to feel. Exactly. And that leads me to my second thing about [00:07:30] interiority thatās so helpful with MTS especially, is interiority is the single best way to increase the fear that the reader feels.
Ooh. And so if thereās a knock on the door and, you know, Suzy is chatting about how sheās excited to, you know, talk to the monkey trainer that sheās hired to come and talk to us- And in my interior heart- Sheās training my monkeys. Yeah. With so many monkeys. So many metaphors. But in my head, Iām like, āOh my God, what if the monkey trainer, what if that knock on the door is not at all the person that she expects it to be?ā
And I [00:08:00] actually think this is some- this is the person who has found me. All of a sudden, um- Wearing
Samantha Skal: the monkey trainer
Suzy Vadori: outfit ā¦ wearing the monkey trainer outfit. All of a sudden, Iām looking around me and being like, āOkay, where can I hide? What if this? What if that?ā Agency. Yes. Agency. It gives you things to do- Yes
because you, we know what you want. You do not want to be found, right? Like, all of the things. Yes. Okay, thatās amazing. What is suspense? Suspense is the uncertainty that something bad will happen. Okay. Thatās the best way that I know how to define it. But, you know, itās one of those [00:08:30] things where you donāt wanna have Constant low level, never breaking suspense.
You need to give the reader a little bit of a break. And so if youāre writing a suspense novel and that is your goal, you want to be solidly in the suspense category, which I believe is always going to be either mystery focused or like psychological suspense, domestic suspense, whatever it is, right?
Suspense is present in both mysteries and thrillers. But if you want to be more solidly in the full on suspense, you need to keep in [00:09:00] mind that your reader is going to enter that story similar to horror, knowing that something bad is going to happen. So your work is already- Theyāre expecting it ā¦ theyāre expecting it.
And so the suspense is we understand that thing is going to happen, and weāre on the edge of our seat waiting for it to happen. And that is a delicious place to be as both a reader and an author because you can play with it, right? Like a knock on the door is not just a knock on the door because weāre expecting something bad to happen.
And so every time itās not a bad thing- I mean, a knock on the door in [00:09:30] romance is just to interrupt the first kiss and delay the kiss, right? Mm-hmm. So, so yeah. But a knock on the door in MTS means- Terrifying ā¦ something totally different. Yeah. Love that. And if we donāt even know what to be scared of, every little thing in the interiority and how the POV character translates the world around them is going to be quite scary.
Or- Iām actually getting scared just sitting here. Sorry. Life is
Samantha Skal: okay.
Suzy Vadori: Ah, right? Weāre very safe together. Much better. You can take it. But specifically, you know, you can have a situation where youāre writing a suspense novel [00:10:00] and you have one POV character who doesnāt even know they should be scared, and that is also a delicious place to be because the reader knows that they should be scared, but the character doesnāt.
And so you have a different kind of suspense, different kind of- Oh, thatās really cool. So how doā we talked a little bit about structure at the beginning. Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, one of the things that I like to talk to writers about because o- oftentimes theyāll come to me with very complex structures, you know, dual timeline or many, many timelines and [00:10:30] jumping back and forth and all the things.
And for many genres the answer is usually, especially for your first book, go with a chronological timeline because itās easier. And the payoff, I mean, even though you mightāve read that really cool twisty thing where that was a thing, unless it really- plays into, you know, the psychological thriller or something, and youāre trying to piece it all together out of order, and itās part of the point of the book, youāre really gonna do yourself a [00:11:00] disservice trying to make it really complicated for the payoff, right?
Like, you could probably write it in chronological, in most genres, in chronological order. Itād be just as powerful, and youād probably do a better job because itās really hard. But in these, in MTS, what do you coach writers in termsā āCause structure is often really important in how you- Yeah ā¦ deliver that information, so what would your best advice on that be?
Samantha Skal: Yeah. Well,
Suzy Vadori: itās like with every genre, you know, confusion does not equal [00:11:30] stickiness for the reader. If anything, I mean, not if anything, it will- And it doesnāt, it doesnātā I love that. Confusion does not actually equal suspense either. No, it doesnāt. It doesnāt. And the more confused your reader is, the m- the further out from the story theyāre gonna feel, and the whole point of MTS is to suck people in and make them feel like thereās zero filter between them and what the POV character is going through.
And that is that fear, right? MTS readers want to get in to feel scared. But in terms of structure, you know, itās pretty common, I [00:12:00] would say, to have ā¦ So for example, domestic thrillers, domestic suspense often has two POVs because we have two people against each other, and weāre not sure whatās gonna happen, and we know that theyāre both scared of one another, right?
Yeah. Psychological thrillers are often, you know, they can be told from a single POV, and itās, you know, somebodyās being gaslit, someoneās being hunted, someoneās psychologically tormenting somebody else. That can also be a multi-cast, you can have multiple POVs. Mysteries are often one, right? Particularly police [00:12:30] procedural.
Dual timelines are particularly useful if you are trying to have an old crime come to light or tell the story of an old wrong that is very relevant to story present. But in all those cases, to your point, they need to serve the story that youāre trying to tell. And so as the author, you need to know what really happened always, and you need to know what is the most impactful way for the reader experience that you can tell [00:13:00] this story.
And would you suggest, I mean, for those who are not planting it or pantsing it- Mm-hmm ā¦ which means that you write by the seat of your pants, and you donāt necessarily spend much time outlining, which is fine. But would you say, you know, lay it out in chronological order first and then mess with it and see what you wanna do?
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, so one of my favorite exercises for people is, you know, I, I sort of talked about figure out what the villain did first, right? Thatās the first thing I have people do when weāre trying to figure out what the story looks like. [00:13:30] Your villainās origin story might have started when they were, like, five years old, or it might have started when they were a teenager or, you know, someone stole something from them when they were 22.
But Iām gonna guess that you donāt need- Sure ā¦ to start there. Sure donāt. Yeah. So your villainās story will start then, and then youāre gonna have your protagonist story, which is page one of your book. And they, theyāre gonna have backstory too, but where these two timelines intersect is where you start your actual story.
And that is as close to the action as you can possibly get. We do not [00:14:00] faff around in MTS. We get right into it. And you need enough so that the reader has some background and understands some of the context about why this is so scary or whatās going on. You know, so a haunted house is a good example. So we have somebody whoās entering, you know, they, theyāve learned that theyāre gonna be spending the weekend at this house, or they learn that they inherited a house or whatever.
And then weā chapter one is them getting to the house. The midpoint is they realize they canāt leave the house. So it just, you need to understand [00:14:30] what the journey is you want the reader to take when they en- when they pick up your book. Yeah. And the goal with MTS is to suck them in on page one. Do not bore them.
Do not confuse them. Be as close to the character as you possibly can with their experience, and then guide them through it and let them go until the end. In, in haunted house stuff, youā¦ The whole point is horror, right? So like we know that itās gonna be scary, and like they think that theyāre gonna be able to leave, and then they canāt.
But the first half of the book is them being like, āOkay, this is haunted, but like this, Iāll [00:15:00] be able, Iāll be fine. Iāll be able to leave.ā Then something terrible happens, they canāt leave, and then they have to Yeah, I mean, in other genres that might be a yawn fest to have that very slow build, but in, in suspense, that makes sense In, in horror and suspense, yeah, youāre, the reader knows that something bad is gonna happen, and so itās all about that, like, ratcheting tension that you feel.
You know, and if you think of, like, I always use James Bond as an example because everyone has seen James Bond, right? We enter those movies and [00:15:30] those stories with a car action, car chase, or, like, you know, heās jumping out of a building, heās chasing somebody, whatever, and then we find out that itās something to do with the true villain he has to stop from, like, blowing up the world or whatever.
Those are very action-packed, and we have little breaks where he seduces women, and then goes. But psychological thrillers, slower burn. Horror, slower burn. Itās always kind of pissed me off
Samantha Skal: how many women he s- uses and-
Suzy Vadori: Yeah ā¦ the like of it just kind of wants the, like, they canāt do it. Iām like, really? You know.
Itās, itās crazy. [00:16:00] I, itās just, I, you know- Speaking
Samantha Skal: of tropes.
Suzy Vadori: Yeah. Speaking of tropes, and I know, I mean, I, I dated my husband for, Iāve been with my husband for 30 years. Yeah. And so we watched a lot of James Bond movies- Yeah ā¦ inadvertently over the years. Yeah. And Iām always like, ah, and heās like, āLet it go, let it go.
Just enjoy the movie.ā Iām like, āI canāt let it go.ā Okay. Sam, this has been unbelievably fun. Thanks for having me. Thank you for sitting down. I wanna know, whatās your best advice for writers that maybe wanna try writing an MTS
Samantha Skal: for the first time?
Suzy Vadori: Yeah. [00:16:30] Thatās a good question. Aside from just reading and figuring out what kind of, in that subgenre you want to tell, because you do need to understand that there are, thereās full mysteries, thereās full thrillers.
Like, where do you personally wanna sit? You know, get, get into the darkness of these characters, right? Like, understand, understand their why, and that will, that will guide you, like, 80% of the way, and the rest of it is just structure. But, you know, I just, Iām just fascinated by why people do the things that they [00:17:00] do, and MTS focuses on the particularly bad parts of things, and so thereās always gonna be life and death stakes.
There always is gonna be something thatās, like, sometimes a fate worse than death. Um, so if youāre fascinated by all of that, itās, could absolutely be your genre. And, you know, it doesnāt make- Itās a fun thing ā¦ I
Samantha Skal: mean, this is something that Iāve coached writers through before, but sometimes, you know, when you go to that dark
Suzy Vadori: place,
Samantha Skal: just
Suzy Vadori: make sure that youāre looking after,
Samantha Skal: after yourself.
Suzy Vadori: Yes, yes, and take little breaks. Thatās what I tell people, too. Itās like when weāre brainstorming this stuff, like- It doesnāt
Samantha Skal: mean that you did these things.
Suzy Vadori: No, I mean,
Samantha Skal: yeah. It doesnāt mean that you want to do these things. Itās okay, and [00:17:30] sometimes itās just your way of processing what you think is hypocritical or evil in the world,
Suzy Vadori: right?
Yeah, absolutely. Itās, I mean, itās, itās psychology. Itās like, why do people do what they do? But itās a fabulous genre to be a part of. Iāve loved it so much. I am a very happy person, and I am very tr- Iām very drawn to darker stories, so here we are Amazing. Sam, how can listeners find you? āCause Iām sure theyāre all gonna wanna go and find everything that you do.
What is it that you do from a coaching perspective? What do you offer? Tell us about your [00:18:00] programs. Yeah. Where can we find you? Yeah, so I am samanthaskal.com, S-K-A-L, and I do one-on-one coaching. I have a writing retreat company that I co-founded with a fabulous coach as well, Carrie Savage. That retreat company is called Shadows and Secrets, which is shadowsandsecrets.com, and we have an online membership with group coaching.
And Iām also, I love planning conferences, so Iām a big part of Tiller Fest. So if youāve ever gone to that or want to, thatās a wonderful place to meet more friendly, [00:18:30] shockingly friendly. We like to joke in the MTS community that we are the friendliest group of writers because we work our stuff out on the page.
So we are- Oh, I love it ā¦ we are just, just come and have fun. Come and have fun with us. Amazing. Thanks so much for being on the show. I canāt wait to play that twist drinking game soon. Thank you for having me.[00:19:00]
For tuning in to the Show, Donāt Tell writing podcast with me, Suzy Vadori. It is my absolute honor to bring you the straight goods for that book youāre writing or the book that youāre planning to write. Please help me keep the podcast going by helping people find us. You can subscribe to the podcast and leave a review on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever else youāre listening to show how much you enjoy the show.
Thatās how other listeners will find us. Also, visit Suzyfadori.com/newsletter [00:19:30] to hop on my weekly inspired writing newsletter list, where youāll stay inspired and be the first to know about all the upcoming training events and writing courses that happen in my community. Want my eyes on your writing?
Submit a page in your current draft for a chance to come on the podcast at the link in the show notes. Iād love to chat with you about your writing in my always positive, incredibly supportive way so that you can make great strides towards your writing goals. Iām here [00:20:00] to cheer you on. Remember, that book youāre writing is gonna open doors that you havenāt even thought of yet, and I canāt wait to help you make that it the absolute best it can be.
See you again right here next [00:20:30] [00:21:00] week