Show don’t tell Writing Podcast: 55. Show don’t Tell Page Review: Psychological Thriller with Liz Alterman

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In this episode, Suzy chats with author Liz Alterman about a page from her work in progress. They discuss the merits and pitfalls of various writing habits, and how to ‘unstick’ yourself when you can’t seem to keep writing forward. You’ll also learn about the unique style choices that can be made when writing a psychological thriller. Time to dive in!

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Podcast Episode Transcript (unedited)

Suzy Vadori: [00:00:00] Welcome to Show. Don’t Tell Writing with me, Suzy Vadori, where I teach you the tried and true secrets to writing fiction nonfiction that are gonna wow your readers broken down step by step. We’re gonna explore writing techniques. I’m gonna show you a glimpse behind the scenes of successful writers’ careers that you wouldn’t have access to otherwise.

And I’m also gonna coach writers live on their pages so that you can learn and transform your own storytelling. Whether you’re just starting out, you’re drafting your first book, you’re editing, or you’re currently rewriting that book, or maybe even your 10th book, this show’s gonna help you unlock the writing skills that you didn’t even know you needed, but you definitely do.

I’m so looking forward to helping you get your amazing ideas from your mind onto your pages in an exciting way for both you and your readers, so that you can achieve your wildest writing dreams, [00:01:00] and you’re gonna also have some fun doing it. Let’s dive in. I am thrilled to be welcoming to the show today, Liz Alderman, who has submitted a one page show.

Don’t tell, review page for us to discuss. Liz, not surprisingly, when you see her page and how horrific it is, has written many books before and we’ll leave the by links for you in the show notes. Liz lives in New Jersey with her husband, three sons and two cats. She spends most days repeatedly microwaving the same cup of coffee.

I think we can all probably relate to that and looking ups, synonyms. A person after my own heart. Who loves synonyms and all kinds of things. I’m going to read this one page for you that she has submitted that she and I are going to work on together. This story begins with a face, his face, smiling, beaming really at me from mid magazine, not a flashy one like GQ or Vogue.

It’s a local kind that includes [00:02:00] fluff pieces about high schoolers collecting canned goods or gently used Ford equipment so they’re able to demonstrate leadership. College essay sandwich between these fo do-gooders and a flurry of advertisements for dentists and interior designers. He’s there wearing a Navy suit that brings out the blue in his eyes.

And the same grin that sent spark, ’cause it’s zipping through me from the first moment I saw him. His lips are parted. He’s doing that thing with his tongue, pressing it against the back of his straight white teeth. It’s weird, but picture the hottest actor making a similar face. I’ll wait. See. Oddly charming.

It’s like he’s about to tell you a joke or let you in on a secret. What he actually wants to do, according to this glossy full page spread, is sell you a house. It takes full 10 seconds for that to register because my mind is blank from the shock of seeing him after all this time. It’s that sensation of getting the wind knocked out of me, a medicine [00:03:00] ball to the gut, and it hurles me back to the last time I saw him or technically didn’t see him.

I snapped the magazine shut fast, like I’m 12 again and Lila’s caught me reading her diary. Welcome

Liz A.: to the show,

Suzy Vadori: Liz.

Liz A.: Oh, Susie, thanks for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

Suzy Vadori: Yeah, this is great. We were just talking before we hit record about. The dream when you meet people and they’re saying, oh, when I retire I’m gonna write a novel.

So is that what it’s like for you, Liz? We didn’t get there yet. I said let’s start recording this. This is good stuff. So when did you start writing?

Liz A.: Oh, that’s a great question. I guess when I was very little, I can remember stapling pages together, trying to write my own books. I don’t really know that they had much plot or character development, but I was trying with my colored pencils to illustrate, and I’m certainly no artist, but it was something I’d always wanted to pursue, like a lifelong dream.

And I was an English major in college, so reading is my favorite hobby and just [00:04:00] getting lost inside a book is my favorite way to spend an afternoon.

Suzy Vadori: Absolutely. Absolutely. I read for a living now and whoever knew that was a job, right? If I could go back and tell my younger self before I worked in banking and manufacturing and all those really exciting places once for my career, Hey, why don’t you just read for a living?

Yeah. It’s actually pretty awesome, right? To be able to turn your hobby into something. So how long have you been working on this? So we’ve got the one page, and listeners have heard it already. We’re gonna diamond in a second, but. How long have you been working on this particular, is it from a book? I’m assuming it’s from a book.

Liz A.: It, it will hopefully be from a book, so I have to be honest, I completed something else this spring, or I, as I say, I like to think it’s complete. It happens the same. It’s in that period where I’ve sent it off for a little feedback, waiting for that, and then I had this idea and I actually was taking a course how to write a novel through Read Z.

They very generously came to me [00:05:00] and said, would you like to take this course? And would you promote it in your monthly newsletter? I have a newsletter on Substack, so I said Sure. So this was the idea I went with. Technically I should be writing a thousand words a day if I, or I’m sorry, I shouldn’t say that.

Like 5,000 a week I think is the goal. Wow. Yeah, it’s a lot. So I was hoping it would really help me generate, just get moving on this idea. Yeah. But I have to be honest, I’ve stalled and it’s my own fault. The course has been wonderful, but I also think as I absorb the lessons, I’m overthinking a lot. And even though our instructor on like day one says, just push forward.

Don’t bog down. You can fix everything later. I’ve had a little trouble going back and forth on, do I wanna start here? Do I wanna start there? Then some of the sort of plot points are a little unclear in my mind and I know I should just write and like hope that magic happens, but it’s

Suzy Vadori: alright. I’m gonna say something that’s maybe not a [00:06:00] very popular opinion right now and that’s.

So the push forward and just write, that’s the old nano rmo advice. And there’s different programs taking that on now. And it’s great and it works for a lot of people and it works to get you out of, especially your first novel. It works to get you out of your own head and get things on the page. It never results in very strong book and it results in a lot of work.

And so if you’re finding it’s okay, right? It’s okay to explore different things. It works for some people and some people. Don’t work like that. You have an English degree, right? So you’re going to have some resistance around that, or we label it resistance if we think that it’s bad, but it’s not necessarily bad.

In fact, if you spend more time planning and the, that can really work. So when people used to do nano rmo, which was National Novel Writing Month, and the organization had a lot of issues, and so it’s been disbanded recently, but the thing is to get the most out of that, you really have to spend the time upfront.

Planning and [00:07:00] thinking, and that time you can’t do it in 30 days. It’s just when it works. I agree. So what you’re experiencing right now, yes and yes, you should push through if you’ve never written before, but you have. And what happens is, especially if you’re saying that some of the plot points are fuzzy in your mind.

If you write, it’s gonna be bland. It’s gonna be boring, and it’s not gonna be specific. And this whole podcast is about show. Don’t tell. You can’t do that if you don’t know, right. If it’s not in your brain yet, you’re gonna write something so bland and it’s gonna be hard to fix ’cause there won’t be any spelling mistakes in it.

I don’t believe there will be. There won’t be anything to correct. It just will suck. Does that make sense? No, totally.

Liz A.: Or it feels very meandering or there’s flap to link one idea to the next and I don’t want that. Especially not,

Suzy Vadori: yeah. So they’re not wrong. Try it. Try all the different things. There are a hundred different ways to write a [00:08:00] novel, and the truth is no one size fits all, no matter what, any writing, no matter what I tell you, no matter what, any writing it, ignore me.

I will work with writers on lots of different methodologies because we have to fit it in. How, like Liz, right now, how much time, like I, we haven’t met before, so totally. I don’t know what your answer’s gonna be, but how much time are you able to dedicate to your writing right now in your life? Like where does this fit in?

Liz A.: If I were more disciplined, Susie, I have to say I could probably spend two to three hours a day. I’m a freelance writer by trade, and I pick up other jobs on, on the fly. So every day is a little bit different. But if I were really disciplined about waking up or like I do get up early and I have intentions of writing, and then I get sucked into my email or I do something else, and before I know it, I’m down to 45 minutes and yeah.

Yeah. So. The goal for summer was to be a little bit better, but I could devote several hours [00:09:00] and I did give myself a deadline for a different project and I was able to generate about 30 pages in a week and page pages that had direction that I’m drafted, reworked. And so I know I’m capable if I could just the really stick to my self-imposed deadlines.

So maybe you can help me. Okay.

Suzy Vadori: So this is so important stuff, right? We could talk about what’s on the page all we want, but if we’re not getting to the page, then that’s not helpful either. Cool. So here’s what I heard just now, which is really interesting. ’cause you’re being mean to yourself. You know that, right?

If I was, if only I was more disciplined, if I was this, if I was that, then curse of being a freelance writer is that you’re actually spending some of that creative energy time towards other people, right? It’s not, you’re not doing a completely different job with two to three hours to pour your creative heart out.

You’re actually using that creativity and using those writing skills and using all of those skills throughout the day. Does that resonate? [00:10:00] Absolutely. So when you’re saying, when you’re beating yourself up and saying, oh, I wasted all this time, you can’t just generate it like that. That myth of somebody, you know, renting a, I see this all the time, but somebody renting a cabin in the wood, running off and writing a novel and just flows, not how it works.

We have to make sure that we’re replenishing our creative self as well. Absolutely. So, so take a look at that. But the other thing that I would say. Is it all has to get done. So any program that’s focusing a lot on, and I don’t wanna diss this program, it sounds like it’s wonderful with reasons at the end, trying out.

Right. But if you’re finding that you’re only rewarding yourself for words on the page, you’re ignoring the fact that you’re doing a hundred other things for your book that have to get dark. Right. And even if that’s. Editing and revising as you go, right? That count, which you’re doing, it counts. In a program like that, the idea is to push through and not do that.

I get it. And to try that on and see how that works for you. For some people who get in their [00:11:00] own heads or bogged down or get stuck or get really worried about pages, that can be really relieving to just move forward. But if you’re just still making decisions, all of those decisions that you make, taking a walk and thinking about your character and where their arc is going, or thinking about, Ooh, where are the romance to go in this book?

Or when I, who knows, there’s romance in your psychological thrill or what? What are those things that have to come to together for the plot? Give yourself credit for all of that as well. So it is not just two to three hours of sitting your butt in the chair and writing. Yeah, that’s a big part of it that has to happen.

If you’re finding that you don’t have a plan, but none of that’s gonna be wasted time and you’re gonna feel that resistance.

Liz A.: Absolutely. Right. And that frustration, because I often tell other friends, I feel that a good idea is worth a thousand words. Because once you get that idea, you’re on the path and then the writing is not so difficult.

But doing it without the ideas and hoping they’ll come in the moment is, [00:12:00] is a challenge

Suzy Vadori: making the decisions. There’s a hundred ways you could take this novel. And until you decide you’re gonna write in a way that’s very non-specific and especially the psychological thriller, because structure in it’s like, and I don’t know, is the, the course isn’t just for psychological thrillers.

No, it’s for any genre. So you’ve written off a genre, which is amazing, that has a very tricky structure to it. And so the way that you unveil information is very important. And you get to be created. It’s not coach all genre or a lot of different genres. There’s a few, I don’t do much literary, but the way that a psychological thriller is constructed is not prescribed.

So a romance is pretty prescribed. There’s beats and there’s things that have to happen to satisfy readers and a mystery and like all of those, but a psychological thriller. Part of the fun of it is the writer creating an interesting structure to reveal things. In fact, a lot of times we know who died and [00:13:00] we know who did it at the very beginning, or we may not know who did it, but we know what happened then it’s unraveling it and going back and forth and back and forth, and fixing, fixing.

That’s really hard to just write forward, to recognize that. Thank you. You’re absolutely right. That’s so true. So those decisions that you’re making about the structure they all have to get done. So if they eat into your two to three hours of writing, just recognize that. If that’s all you have, it’s not just discipline.

I might be, and I don’t know, forcing yourself to write, but it might just be that you haven’t made those decisions. So the writing isn’t there. Exactly when I, yeah, when I used to work in corporate and I would go on writers retreats or work all day Saturday on my writing. My husband took my small kids, then now they’re late teens when he took them to the science center for the day or whatever, so I could write, I found I could write like a thousand words an hour, which is crazy.

And for those listening, for newer writers listening, don’t compare [00:14:00] yourself to that. That’s like me being pent up and only getting to write once, one day, every two weeks, every three weeks, whatever. Worked with our schedule. I used to travel a lot. Very busy life. And the thing is, when I quit that job to do all things writing, when that kind of, I didn’t do it on purpose, it just crept up on me where I was being asked to speak and teach and write, do all these things, I couldn’t do that anymore.

Sure. ’cause I didn’t have, I hadn’t done that thinking time and, and wasn’t right. Credit for it. Yeah,

Liz A.: that’s what I was gonna say. I’m sure in that downtime as, because I often find when I’m doing the dishes or I’m cooking a meal or I’m doing some gardening, all that stuff is working itself out in my mind.

And if you don’t have that extra head space, it’s hard to let those characters tell you what should happen next.

Suzy Vadori: Exactly. Exactly. Okay. We could go out all day. I hope that’s been, let’s do a package. Super helpful. Thank. So I’m going to call this up and I am going to [00:15:00] send this to you after, so if you, yeah, so you don’t have to take notes or anything.

Is this just really quick before we start? Is this the opening. To your book? I do. I always read these blinds, so I have no idea. That is a great question.

Liz A.: So this is also part of my issue. Okay. Originally, this was the start of chapter two. I wanted to begin with a voicey, almost like a somewhat snarky narrator who has looked like the style of Bella Mackey that had to kill your family.

Like I, I loved that. I love that kind of voice. Somebody kind of telling you from the outset like this, like, we’re gonna go on a ride and I’m gonna make some bad choices. And if you’re not ready for that, like here’s me showing you the exit. But I understand like I’m not really grounding the reader. Like you don’t know where that voice is coming from.

You don’t know setting time. Who is this narrator? But that was really just about a page and a half, but. The more I [00:16:00] thought about it, I thought, okay, I don’t, maybe I should start with this. So I switched it, but then I didn’t like it as much. So I, I’ve gone back and forth maybe four times, and that’s another place where I’m just tripping myself up.

Yeah. Okay. So who it, who was the narrator? She would be the main character, the same voice that you’re hearing here. It’s

Suzy Vadori: not, it’s not like actually a narrator. It’s a point of view character, but it’s, we’re narrating. Okay. Exactly. So yes. Okay. So you can do either of those things, but I like it that you had an answer because if it’s just like some random narrative, it’s pretty hard to connect to their point of view.

Yeah. So if she’s the main character, that’s fine. You can do that. A page and a half is a long time to not be grounded in that opening. But it can work if it’s voicey. That’s the thing with psychological thriller. You get to play with structure and you don’t have to follow all the rules. In fact, if you follow all the rules, then it’s.

Missing the font. Mm-hmm. It’s one of those genres that recognize that you’ve bitten off one of the [00:17:00] more difficult structural genres. Okay. Let’s dive in. ’cause I thought that this would be a pretty, pretty solid opening. I just was curious if it was the opening.

Liz A.: I like, that’s why I was so looking forward to this call because I’ve gone back and forth four times and I’ve gotten different feedback from people I’ve shared it with.

Yeah. And

Suzy Vadori: it’s hard take. I’ve only seen one page, so take it with a grain of salt. If you’re getting feedback from other people. Specifically on this show, I try to really focus on the show, don’t tell aspects, and really showing us. I actually love the voice of this. It is very voicey. There’s room for detail, there’s room for detail, and by detail I don’t mean.

Prosy boring paragraphs that describe everything, but there’s room to stick. A few really solid examples in here because we are still very pulled back, if that makes sense. It’s very general. So the story begins with a face, his face smiling, beaming, really at me from Mid magazine, so I would just love [00:18:00] his.

You’ve got some of it later, but Right. I think you’ve got his pearly teeth or his white teeth. Put something visual up here. Smiling, beaming really with his white teeth from the middle of, I don’t know, something, one of those details could go up here because it’s really hard for me to see that. And then just getting specific, not a splashy one, like GQ or Vogue, not a splashy magazine like GQ Vogue.

So just pay attention to how specific, especially if this is your opening, we have no context. So if we use something general one or something, I actually. It felt like not a general, or not a splashy one, like not a splashy face, like it was hard for request. You’re saying, okay, figure out what’s happening.

So getting nitpicky there, but the more you know, because you’re being voicey, just be careful that you’re not being so general that I can’t, can’t get it.

Liz A.: Okay. Now

Suzy Vadori: here,

Liz A.: can I just put a question right here? I, of course, a pet peeve when people reuse words, so I didn’t know if I could periodical [00:19:00] or especially I listen to a lot of audio books.

And when I hear a repeated word, it stops me in the most. I

Suzy Vadori: totally agree. I totally agree.

Liz A.: But sometimes I feel like with the character wouldn’t say periodical. Do you know what I mean? The same way if you’re trying to say phone, you wouldn’t necessarily say sell or device. Let

Suzy Vadori: me read this one to you.

Really At me from mid magazine, not a splashy magazine. Right. You can repeat it. It’s when it’s not intentional. Then it feels really weird and a great way to hear that because it’s hard to see in your own writing. We do that all the time and writers do that all. I do it in my own writing where I’m like, I write something and then I’m like, oh, this is a good idea.

And they’re like, oh, I already wrote that a sentence ago. Like, yes. So I, in this case repeating, it really is just being specific. So be careful. You don’t wanna be creating all kinds of different ways too. ’cause that’s distracting all. I agree. But yeah, if you, A good way to do it is if you, if you do a listening pass of your own [00:20:00] work.

I do. Yeah. So if you, I love listening pass there. Yeah. Any of those natural. Perfect. Yeah. So if you do a listening pass, you’ll hear those repeated words really easily, and you’ll hear when they’re annoying and you’ll hear when they work. And I don’t think that this would be, personally, this wouldn’t be annoying.

You’ll have to find a way to make sure that, I don’t think he has a splashy face. Who doesn’t? It reads that way right now. But in this part, you’ve actually got a lot of specifics. So you’ve got, it’s the local kind that include fluff pieces about high schoolers collecting canned goods or gently used sports equipment, so they’re able to, quote unquote, demonstrate leadership in a college essay.

Perfect. What you’ve done here is excellent. You haven’t made it very long. You’ve listed three things that are in these magazines that tell me exactly what it is. You’ve gotten very specific, so nice job. That’s often what I recommend. Yeah. And then sandwich between these photo gooders and a flurry of advertisements for dentists and interior designers.

You’re doing this. You’re doing [00:21:00] it excellent. Showing details. I was trying to figure out by the middle of the page, I was trying to figure out, it’s obviously your point of view. I don’t know who your point of view character is, which might be okay because in a psychological thriller you’re hiding a lot of things from us, so

Liz A.: yes, it is.

It’s like you’re walking that thin line of how much Yeah, there and when. Yes. Yeah, that’s

Suzy Vadori: part of the tea than a psychological thriller. In other genres, I’d be saying, who are we talking about? Or what do they want by the middle of page one, but this is probably fine. I do want to know pretty quickly, is it a male or a female and are they actually attracted to this person?

Do they know this person this? These are the things that I was like, Ooh, I don’t know. So pretty fast somewhere here. So I’m like, okay. Your point of view character is attractive to them. I know nothing about your point of view character yet. Right. There was a few things that tell me that maybe they know one another.

’cause it says his lips are parted and he is doing that thing with his tongue, pressing it against the back of his straight [00:22:00] with white T. It sounds weird, but picture the hottest actor making a similar face. So that’s really cool. You’re breaking that third wall as well. You’re talking to the audience.

You’re talking to the reader, which is cool. As long as it’s consistent throughout. Don’t do it in the opening and then drop it. Like, I’m seen this a lot when people do this voicey opening and then they don’t do it throughout, but that could be really cool. But yeah, reading it back, maybe my comment was that it leads me to know that the point of view character knows him and that he might be pressing his tongue against his teeth.

’cause that’s hard to see in a picture. I don’t think his tongue is present in the photo. Maybe it is, but yeah. So does your character know him? Yes, she does. Okay. Okay. So then I would love something a little bit more personal in this big page. One detail that makes it really clear and that it’s somebody that she knows.

Okay. Got it. Unless that’s part of the secret. I don’t think it is, is it?

Liz A.: I, no, and it, I think it’ll be revealed probably in the next page, like she hasn’t, she’s gonna talk about the last [00:23:00] time she saw him and how long ago that was. And then she’s gonna say to her, cat, I was hoping someone might have punched out those teeth by now.

So you get like a flavor for how Yeah, and that would be great because. Between now

Suzy Vadori: does. Yeah. And even if she doesn’t know him personally, that means that she’s been tracking him for a while and care cares about the outcome or has had an encounter of some kind. That’s awesome. So by the end of page one here, and you may have just done this to fit more extra page, I don’t know, but we’ve got a space like.

I, I’ve made some punctuation suggestions and just for effect, everything in a psychological thriller is about pacing and effect, right? And how you do this stuff out. So there are rules on paragraphs where. There are rules that you have to follow, and then there are discretionary rules. So in this case, the aisle, wait, I’m suggesting you go, it sounds weird, but picture the hottest actor making a similar face, [00:24:00] new paragraph while wait.

New paragraph. See, oddly charming. What that does is it means that your reader reads it a little bit slower, right? So if you’ve got it jammed up ball together, that I’ll wait, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I’ll wait. Like it doesn’t give you enough of a beat. Be with that. Yeah, the like physically wait. Exactly.

Use your, yeah, use your punctuation. Use that paragraph. Spacing. Don’t annoy us and put everything on one line. Like everything else. When you break a rule or when you do something odd, use it sparingly for the moments that matter. In this case, if your reader is reading it, we read very quickly. It just doesn’t have that same effect, so we can actually use paragraph spacing to pause.

Two, that’s a very big, the novel course

Liz A.: I’m taking, so

Suzy Vadori: Yeah. And so I want to say about that. So take it or leave it, the suggestion. No, I like, but you’re like, but if you’re like, always when I’m editing, I always explain why I’m doing something [00:25:00] so that you’re not, that doesn’t make sense. I didn’t break a rule there.

You totally didn’t break a rule. But it just, when I was reading it, it went too fast for me. I wanna savor that, that snark, right? Like I love this. It’s awesome. So it was not technically incorrect. That’s why I like to tell people, or they’re like, Susie, what did I do wrong? Nothing. You did nothing wrong.

Liz A.: Would you also drop after Oddly charming, or, or you keep it together? Like sometimes when I do it you could. Yeah. Do I do the next one? Or You could. Okay. Thank you. Yeah,

Suzy Vadori: you definitely could just, it’s totally your discretion. You’re the artist and Yeah, I left it together here just ’cause I didn’t wanna be so annoying and be like.

Space it, all of it out, but yeah, I know. No, I might. Okay. Thank you. You know what, this kind of, you, you nailed it when you said you’re going for voice, right? Left your

Liz A.: Yeah. I want this character and, and I don’t know if I mentioned this in what I forwarded, but it’s going to be present day and then we’re gonna slash back [00:26:00] to when she first meets character and she’s gonna have a very different voice.

Excellent. It was 15 years ago, or I’m hoping she does, but yeah. And makes sense. Look back that this relationship had on her character.

Suzy Vadori: Yes. And so if you were writing any other genre, and this was like one of your first books that you were taught, like I’d be like, who do we really need that? But you do need it.

And it’s like thriller. You need that structure. But again, recognize it’s hard and it’s gonna take a little bit longer. And so I can totally see why. Write for. I can see why a write forward program is tricky for you right now. Thanks. You have to be careful that you get that right and I can almost see if you wanna push through and do the write forward because it’s working, then great do it.

I would almost write all of, I wouldn’t try to write it in order. I’d write it in chron. I would write it in chronological order and then weave it through. I’d try to write everything in this voice. Okay. And then switch and try to write [00:27:00] everything in the other voice. That’s what I personally would do, because otherwise I don’t know how You would not, ’cause you have to switch gears so much if you’re not giving yourself that in between planning time.

Mm-hmm. Thinking time and you’re just trying to get something on the page, it’s going to be pretty muddled if you don’t, yeah, I would keep all those voices together if you just wanna try and do the right forward piece. I like that. Like that idea? Yeah. Yeah. Give yourself permission. I’m a quilter. Full disclosure, which means, so we’ve got plotters who plot everything out and then write it.

And we’ve got Pantsers. Who, pantsers are the ones who really benefit from a program like you’re doing. ’cause they don’t need to plan, they just see what comes out. I’ve rarely seen parenting work. I know many writers. Who are very far along in their career who will claim to be pantsers, but I know them and they are not.

They can just hold that whole thing, that whole darn thing in their head and they know how to do it, right. They still have a plan, but yeah, a true pants gets stuck halfway through athlete, and so we don’t want you getting stuck. [00:28:00] Okay. And sorry, so a quilter is a hybrid of those two where I actually do always have a solid outline.

And what that allows me to do is I write out an order. So I will write. If I know what I’m writing and I feel happy one day, then I write that and I grou cheese and I write that. Then like you pick and choose what you’re inspired. Eventually you get stuck and you have to write what’s left, but by then you’re pretty far along.

No. So that’s how I get it done.

Liz A.: I totally agree with you. At other, my first adult novel that I was working on, I had the same thing. I wouldn’t know what was coming up immediately, but I knew a scene that needed to go down the line and I was excited about it. So I feel like that almost builds your energy when you’re like, okay, I got this.

Absolutely.

Suzy Vadori: And the other, yeah. And the other thing is that when you recognize, when you start to recognize, it all has to get done, like we talked about earlier in the show. Yeah. It means that when you have an hour. Two. If you can’t write forward, then [00:29:00] pick something else, do some revision, or do something nitpicky.

Go through and do a show. Don’t tell revision on something. Go through and make sure that your scene is grounded. Pick something else because you have to do it at some point. Anyway, and then check it off and say, yeah, good job, not I, oh my gosh, I didn’t get my words done. Sure. That’s my personal opinion.

Again, if it’s working for you, but you’re saying it’s not. So here’s some other choices. So thank you. Um, yeah. By the end of the first page I’m seeing, my comment is, okay, you’ve got this second person vibe going on, like the you vibe, right? You’re addressing the second person, first person’s eye, and third person’s she, he or a name or they, and second person is you.

So you’re addressing the reader, which I like.

Liz A.: Oh, thank you. It’s really

Suzy Vadori: interesting.

Liz A.: Thank you. I want that to continue, as you said, throughout the novel. However, I was only going to do it in the now, in the past. Do you think that would work? Because I, [00:30:00] she’d be a lot more absolutely innocent and kind and a lot less snarky 15 years ago.

Suzy Vadori: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that feels really cool in, in that there’s different personalities, almost one, one that sees themselves almost in the third person and one that’s really present in the moment. And so that could really work. Just keep it consistent.

Liz A.: Thank you. Okay. I just wanted to know. ’cause I feel like it would be, she’s telling it now, but in the past she’s just living it, if that makes sense.

Suzy Vadori: Yeah. Okay. Exactly, exactly. And I do need to know fairly quickly who your point of view character is though. There aren’t any hints here. I don’t know that it’s a female. Right. I don’t know anything and what they think of all of this. Sure. So there’s definitely room. You’ve got this voice and the snark, and yet we’re still missing an interpretation in terms of what she thinks or what it means to her.

And what show Notal is really all about is making meaning of it for the writer, right? And also really putting us into point of views. [00:31:00] So that might be because you don’t know yet. And so that’s what happens when you write forward and you don’t know the answer is you’re gonna have to go back and weave that through, which you can’t.

So by the time you get further along in the book and get to know your character a little bit better because Dove in and didn’t have that time, then you can go back here and we like, instead of having her make general Snar to be quite specific, that will help us connect with her faster and know that it’s a her right.

Maybe it’s a romantic relationship and not just a rival, a business rival that the poke guys’ eyes out like it just, it’s really open right now. It’s

Liz A.: definitely,

Suzy Vadori: and again, by the last I snapped the magazine shut fast, like I’m 12 again. And Lila’s taught me reading her diary, right? And then I’m like, Ooh, I wanna know who Lila is.

I wanna know who your point of view character is. I got stuck on this and why they’re reacting this way, but it’s definitely intriguing. So I would definitely write forward. So is Lila like her sister?

Liz A.: [00:32:00] Yes, and if I kept the other opening the way it was, you would know at on this reference who Lila was.

But yes, these are great points about who the narrator is. Definitely. Yeah,

Suzy Vadori: so you’ve stayed pretty high level because your writing is interesting enough and her voice is different enough. I would stay with this for sure, if this is, if this stays as a second cha in the first chapter. If this is a second chapter, we’re pretty, the chapter breaks don’t matter that much, and you’ll hear me say this as you listen to the podcast a lot, but.

The chapter breaks are pretty much arbitrary. They’re just a spot where you can rest for a moment and keep, go and decide to keep going. Hopefully, maybe go get a drink of water and then dive back in. But the only chapter breaks that matter are the end of chapter three, because by the end of chapter three, we need to be pretty far along and usually in a psychological thriller, we would know what the crime was pretty fast by then, or at least that it’s about like it’s really clear that it’s gonna happened [00:33:00] or something.

Okay. So we have to, you have to be moving it along. So if this is a second, it’s not a whole chapter, it’s one page. But if this is the second chapter, we need to be moving forward and not being so general like we, I need to know by now who this person is, and you’re saying maybe if we had the first chapter, then it would be there.

But yeah, I would wanna move along and have stuff in start to happen. Yeah, because psychologically. Psychological thriller, and in all genres psychologically, that’s how long a reader gives you. For whatever reason, people will pick up a book and start reading. If they make it past chapter three, they’re committed.

They’re not gonna, unless you put in something that’s like a trigger for, or like they really just wanna throw the book across the room, put in a plot twist that says that it was all a dream. Hack. Yeah. Who shot Jr. I’m showing my age there.

Liz A.: Oh, I’m right there with, I remember when that happened.

Suzy Vadori: Know what I’m talking about.

So [00:34:00] I, yeah. So that chapter three, mark matters. And so we have to put pack a lot into the first three chapters and then the chapters that you’re gonna touch the most in your revision. Especially if you keep writing forward, it would be great. Don’t let me discourage you from doing it. I’m just saying, I heard you beating yourself up for not being able to stick with the program and I can see why that’s happening.

And give yourself credit for what you’re, what you are doing, which is thinking, oh, thank you, you need that.

Liz A.: No, I agree. I think I just need to really focus and get, get back to it. And

Suzy Vadori: I think if your commitment is to write a thou, like, what was it? 5,000 words a week. You know how quickly you can write when you’re focused or when you have the words to write or when you know what you’re writing about.

You may have to just look at your day and plan those thinking times as well. Plan those planning times. ’cause if you don’t do that, then when you sit down to write, it feels like writer’s block or feels like [00:35:00] undisciplined or whatever. But you’re actually just thinking or trying to figure out what’s gonna be in the scene.

You have to do that right. Build that in. And then don’t only anybody who says that you could write an hour a day and just write forward, you’re gonna end up with garbage. Right. Like, I don’t see how, and you’re never gonna address the structure that you need in the psychological thriller.

Liz A.: I agree.

Suzy Vadori: Yeah, definitely.

Liz A.: The thinking is key to before you can really sit down and game momentum, at least.

Suzy Vadori: Yeah. At least that’s been my experience with many writers, but. And you are further along than you think. You almost know too much to be able to just write like that advice works if you are scared. It really works to unlock, but you know what you’re doing.

Liz A.: It should. Yeah. I just remind myself of that when I’m feeling I like, what am I doing?

Suzy Vadori: Yeah. So what’s your plan for this novel? When does this course wrap up? I wanna hear a few majors. So is that to get you to 50,000? Is it a 10 week course? [00:36:00]

Liz A.: It was 10 weeks. Yes. I think I’m down to maybe done four weeks left.

And then just because of my confusion, I took a break from this and Yeah. But I do wanna get back to it. And I was thinking that probably the key would be to sit down and outline and just take that time to think about, especially. I totally agree. I don’t know if I said this earlier, but I had shared the first part in the course ’cause there is a live editing segment and then it confirms, I’m not really grounding.

The reader, which just was echoing everything that I felt myself and then, but I think I need to really think about the get the fir and I’m one of those people. I have a hard time moving forward almost. You know how you don’t like to leave your house with your bed on me or everything a disaster behind you?

I like to think this is in some semblance of order before I pick up and move forward. Yeah. I’m feeling that unsettledness [00:37:00] and that is preventing me. From going forward. Love

Suzy Vadori: it. Sit with it and figure out what is unsettled about it and make a, I’m a list maker. I, I’m not a, I’m not a bed maker funny enough, but yeah, I am a list maker.

And so if you’re feeling unsettled, sit with that. What, what would help and make a list and make those decisions. And if part of it is, yeah. So grounding in the scene that you’re talking about is all about being in a moment. Mm-hmm. And in this. You almost have it. It’s only one page. You almost have it.

You’ve got her looking at a magazine. I don’t know that it’s a her. I don’t know where she is. Right, exactly. I don’t know what’s happening. So we’re almost in a scene. It’s not like she’s not doing anything in story present, which is what we call it, like staying in story present. So you’ve gotta hear about, I would need to have that information pretty quickly.

Like where Sure. Where is she? Yeah, for sure. I agree. Hopefully this. Yes. This is so, almost, so thank you. Huge screen [00:38:00] flags. Huge green flags on what, where you’re going with this so far, so thank

Liz A.: you. That

Suzy Vadori: makes me feel So no need re Yeah, no need to rewrite it all. Pay attention. There’s definitely some areas where you’re doing a great job in some areas.

You can continue to do a great job, but those are second, third draft stuff. Don’t worry about it now, move forward, get some planning in place. That would be my recommendation. And then see if you can get back on that, like fast writing, if that’s exciting to you, then do it. But yeah, without the planning, especially in a psychological thriller.

I think you’re gonna, you’re gonna really get muddled. You’re gonna end up with stuck and then you’re gonna get stuck and get overwhelmed. Yeah. Overwhelm is really just when we haven’t made those decisions, like it’s a real thing. Your brain overwhelm is your brain’s response to you not making a choice.

Yes. Or having too many choices and so it just stops, I think,

Liz A.: real me with the first pages and this, and so that’s where I need to, I feel like once I make that decision, [00:39:00] I’ll be able to go forward.

Suzy Vadori: Absolutely. And so I encourage you make the decision. Is this your first chapter or is it your second chapter?

Because until you make that, you can’t fix it. Exam and, and the truth is, as a coach, I always tell people this, I’m not gonna hold your feet to the fire and say, if you go down this path and it doesn’t work, then you can backtrack and change it. But if you don’t go down either path. Right then you never know that it didn’t work.

Yeah. You just help you. You can’t move forward.

Liz A.: Yes.

Suzy Vadori: I just have to

Liz A.: decide and go, I’m gonna set, set myself a deadline. Hey, what’s your deadline? Let’s do it right now. Ooh, that’s a good piece. Public on the podcast. Okay. I’ll pick, maybe I’ll say a week from today, so that would be July 18th. I’ll have the decision about which made the decision, which

Suzy Vadori: just, just sit with it and write forward and see if it works.

And if it doesn’t, you can always unwind it. Exactly. Like if you don’t make a decision, you’re gonna be here, sitting here next week in the same decision. Yes. Awesome. I [00:40:00] hope this has been. Amazing. I can’t, I can’t wait to see.

Liz A.: Yes.

Suzy Vadori: I can’t wait to hear how this all goes for you. Come back on the podcast anytime and let us know how it’s going.

Liz A.: I would. I’d like Thank you for having me and thank you for your help. This has been wonderful. You’re so welcome, Liz. Best of luck. Thanks.

Suzy Vadori: Thanks for tuning in to show. No. Tell Writing with me, Suzy Vadori. I’ll me continue to bring you the straight goods for that book you’re writing or planning to write. Please consider subscribing to this podcast and leaving a review on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever else you’re listening. Also, visit susie Vadori.com/newsletter to hop on my weekly inspired writing newsletter list where you’ll stay into.

Fired and be the first to know about upcoming training events and writing courses that happen in my community. If you’re feeling brave, check the show notes and send us a page of your writing that isn’t quite where you want it to [00:41:00] be yet for our show to tell page review episodes. Remember that book and your writing is going to open doors that you haven’t even thought of yet, and I can’t wait to help you make it the absolute best.

You’re feeling called to write that book. Keep going and I’m gonna be right here cheering you on. See you again next week.